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Michelin N0 marked tyres.


DJMC

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56 minutes ago, PorscheGT4 said:

No I don't mean track tyre, I DO mean dry weather road tyre the SS still looks better !

 

I would never run a PS4 on track, prob melt it lol

 

I'll stick to le mans 24 hour tech  not formula E tech :-)

 

interesting times if they stop the SS, still cannot see it happening, it's on most super cars

 

Why so scathing of info from a guy whose race credentials seem to stack up? He is Jamie McWhir, previously Michelin F1 race engineer for Red Bull and also worked with Alonso, Button, Fisichella, Trulli & Webber. See: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=92039

 

He mentioned Le Mans development for the PS4 when I first spoke to him. I'd say he knows a fair bit about running on a track?

 

SS may look better but what goes into the tyre compound and development is surely invisible to the naked eye? 

 

If you do speak to him, I'm sure he'll confirm the same to you as he did to me, that the PS4 is superior to the SS in 99% of driving situations. That's not just wet conditions, that's ALL conditions. Give him a call?

 

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Matters not who he is, he has to sell the products and fall into place on the company line esp to a member of the public.

 

he is not going to say here is our PS4 it's crap !

 

I have had it out with him on PH back in 2014, he won't answer what you ask, like wise he cannot say to you fit a PSS to your 981 lol

 

On the website the SS is still above the PS4  just below the CUP 2 !

 

call me a cynic :-) but he just takes the company line and cannot be trusted to give any real info.

I made him look like an idiot on PH regarding N spec bullshit !!!  winds me up no end the N spec thing.

 

 

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Ah dear, the same old N-spec BS.  

 

TBH I'd wait until the new tyre is released and you can touch and feel it for yourself, I have to agree that a Michelin rep, whoever they are, will always be biased about their new product, although I'm sure his credentials stack up. 

 

Why argue about something that doesn't exist yet? 

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Thought I'd get the official line on how non-N marked tyres might affect my warranty.

 

In respect of fitting non N marked tyres, my OPC replied:

 

"This is not a good thing to do, this can invalidate your warranty on the drivechain/transmission side and also when the time is due for renewal, a warranty could not be issued if the vehicle is fitted with Non-standard equipment and non N rated tyres."

 

No sign of the new 20" PS4s until the 718 is around so looks like Goodyear F1 A2s might be my only sensible N marked option. Rears are down to 3mm now so I may have to forego the Michelins this time round.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Accepting that PZeros leave a lot to be desired (and having tried Eagle F1s they don't do it for me either, though they do have a quite different feel) - tyre design is such a compromise that I can't believe that Michelin won't have their compromises too.   Personally I have no real issues with Pirellis in terms of grip as such.  I don't track the car so outright grip is of no great importance to me - the 981 has more than enough.  Steering feel (the 981s biggest weakness?), response and progression are far more important to me.  And personally, since my car is a DD and a I regard it as a GT rather than an outright sports car tyre roar (conversation limiting on Zeros on concrete surfaces), and ride are real issues to me.

 

Unfortunately getting even subjective - but analytical - input on these aspects seems very hard to come by.  And I've been unable to find any objective information on any N0 zero tyres.  Anyone got any real info?

 

 

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Goodyear technical spent some time explaining to me that whereas a Mercedes marked tyre would be engineered for lower road noise, Porsche work with Goodyear (and others I guess) on the tyre sidewall.

 

David Mullin at Goodyear was keen to emphasise that Porsche treat the tyre as an integral part of the car's chassis and handling capabilities and severely warned me off fitting non-N marked tyres for this reason.

 

As a contrast, when I spoke to him prior to the fitting of non-AO marked GY F1 A2s to my TTS he issued no such warning, just saying he'd check with Germany that there had been no reports of bodywork fouling (which he kindly did, and there weren't).

 

I'm hoping the Goodyears will have the same effect on the 981 as they did when replacing Toyos on the Audi, but as I said I don't think it will be so marked. With the recent deterioration of my P Zeros, my tyre retailer saying he sees a lot of issues with Pirellis, and my liking for the Goodyears on the TTS I'm hoping it's a good move.

 

If the PS4s were out now in N marked 20" I'd go for them instead, but they're not. By the time they're available there should be a good deal of feedback available which will help confirm the switch at that time. Could be some years off though, judging by the low wear rates of my TTS Goodyears.

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On 17/02/2016 at 15:08, DJMC said:

 

No sign of the new 20" PS4s until the 718 is around so looks like Goodyear F1 A2s might be my only sensible N marked option. Rears are down to 3mm now so I may have to forego the Michelins this time round.

Don't Porsche have something to say about fitting one brand of tyres at the back of the car and another at the front - or does your issue with the cracking mean you are fitting 4 anyway.  My PZero rears are getting close to the limit and I'm loathe to throw away less than half worn fronts - but I didn't think it wise to put  Michelins (if they are available) on the back only.

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I recall my OPC saying it was OK to fit different N marked brands front and rear, so long as each axle has the same brand. I'd guess any tyre manufacturer would disagree though?

 

P Zeros rears are worn down to 2-3mm but no cracking. The cracked P Zero fronts are half worn but these will go back to Pirelli. So yes, all four being changed to Goodyears at the same time. That will give me your problem when the Goodyear rears are worn out but I want to switch to PS4s maybe. 

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Gordon Robertson, chief driving consultant at PEC Silverstone, just phoned me in response to a query I emailed yesterday.

 

He advised that there are no cars at Silverstone shod with Super Sport tyres, not a single one. That's because they don't make any fitment for any model with an N mark. PEC keep whatever tyre in on the car as built and when they wear out, they replace them with the same again.

 

He said that in a customer facing environment they can't have anything on the car that isn't Porsche approved. They would never mix tyres on different axles either, always the same all round. As for which is best, he said he couldn't choose between any of the N marked brands. There's very little difference as far as he's concerned.

 

Just thought I'd pass this on...

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, PorscheGT4 said:

PSS still are the best tyre to fit to a Cayman ATM non N spec of course,  thread closed ;-)

 

Porsche don't agree. Why?

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  • Founder

the PSS a better performing tyre than many other available high performance road tyres - in many people's opinions (Porsche haven't opined on that as far as I can see?)

 

All we know is Porsche don't use them extensively (although I believe they did fit them to some of the Cayman range, GTS for example) and haven't approved many of the PSS range for fitment to their cars, that doesn't translate into Porsche stating they aren't a high performing tyre which when fitted to one of their vehicles will work incredibly well.  

Edited by Beanoir
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It seems odd that Michelin have failed to obtain an N mark on the PSS but I guess that's where the N marked PS4 comes in. Perhaps the new tyre is the result of years of collaboration between them and Porsche?

 

Could it be the PSS is too specialist for everyday road use and that's why they didn't bother chasing an N mark?

 

By the time my new Goodyears are worn out the 20" PS4 will have had plenty of time to be compared to its PSS forbear. I predict those who loved the PSS will slate it at first, pining for their beloved tyre, and then if it's as good as Michelin say gradually we'll see "actually, this PS4 is very good".

 

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  • Founder

I think you're reading too much into the whole N rating to be honest, it means nothing about the tyres performance or ability, it just means Porsche didn't require the PSS in certain sizes, it could quite possibly because they obtained a better deal from another tyre manufacturer for tyres in that size to supply on their cars. 

 

I really would take what Michelin OR Porsche tell you about the subject with a massive pinch of salt.  

 

You have 2 options, 

 

1) do you want to stay with an N rated tyre (entirely up to you) if so then you know the options available

2) you choose to go for non-N rated tyre and the options for a better performing tyre are available to you 

 

there is no right or wrong, both options have pros and possible cons 

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Also comes down to ££££. Is Mobil 1 the only oil to be used or have Mobil offered to supply it at a massive discount to be associated with a premium brand? Same with tyres, there may be some shared development but marketing and supply deals will be at least as important.

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So do you really disbelieve that there is any joint development of tyre compounds, sidewalls or overall design as I'm being told directly when speaking with Goodyear or Michelin technical staff, or with Gordon Robertson at the PEC?

 

The technical staff go so deeply into the differences between manufacturer marked tyres and generic tyres that I find it impossible to believe they would go to such lengths to make up these differences. 

 

A chap like Jamie McWhir at Michelin has a long reputation in F1 and other racing tyre engineering that I doubt he'd be telling me porkies. He's been the tyre expert for quite a few other forums too. 

 

I shall keep an open mind but for now, having had the conversations I have had recently, I don't believe N marked tyres are simply generic tyres which Porsche have tested and stamped with an N. 

 

 

Edited by DJMC
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