About to make a purchase... Scary... Help please

[Lotusboyuk]

I have decided not to go back and see it. They were a lovely couple as well and I think the specialist they took it to yesterday is basically pulling a fast one which is out of order. As they have used him for all of there services and mots I think over the last 2-3years.

[Tozerman]

Maybe that is for the best, Plenty of choice out there.

Having said that a driveshaft oil seal in theory would be a routine job

 

You could always contact Quorn Sports and Classics https://quornclassics.com/

they did my IMS/RMS and did a good job and are highly regarded ask them what they think, send them the pictures you have and ask how much to replace both side driveshaft oil seals and use that as a bargaining tool. They are not far from you

[Stephen Auty]

I saw this one recently and thought it was a good buy although you'd need to investigate.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Porsche-Cayman-s/193284656716?hash=item2d00a9ce4c:g:YV0AAOSw8fdd4oI-

 

[Stephen Auty]

This one too     https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Porsche-Cayman-24V-S-Coupe-3-4-Manual-Petrol/143493404555?hash=item2168df978b:g:SkoAAOSwmgteFhXT

[Lotusboyuk]

Thanks guys

 

I need an auto as my wife on has a auto licence.... Yeah yeah I know ha ha. But she used to own a near 500bhp supra covered in carbon so she can still hold her own. 

 

Tiptronics seem to be alot more rare, and we are both fans of back on black cars. The couple selling the Cayman have emailed back saying they are going to try and get a second opinion and try and fix it, so I might keep in touch. 

 

Are there any electrical or massive bill issues with the Cayman as they are getting older. 

[sevenfourate]

How long have the current owners had the car ?

 

The oil leak / or any small issues are part and parcel of a used car. That's normal. What is unusual is turning up to buy a car of still quite some cost; and finding it in a condition not ready for sale and with a problem the owners didn't seemingly know about. That i do find slightly worrying; and it would get my mind wondering.....

 

Good luck and don't feel pressured.. Plenty about (Maybe not in Tiptronic as you state), might involve a wait / some travel etc....but the right one for you will appear.

 

 

[GlosRich]

The problem with the driveshaft oil leak, is that it might just be the outer seal where the driveshaft clips in, which is relatively cheap to repair, or it could be one of the seals further down in the gearbox, in which case its probably cheaper to get a second hand gearbox to exchange it with.

 

Its just not something you really want to take on when you pay £12k for a car.

 

That old Merc tiptronic is not as fast to respond as the PDK boxes (which were fitted to the facelift 987.2 from 2008 onwards), but as long as it gets an oil and filter change now and again is a reliable unit.

 

With regard to 'Massive bills' there are known issues with the Cayman's and Boxsters which we have all touched on, hence you need to make sure you buy a good one to start with, with a stack of bills showing lots of things have been changed.

 

RMS, IMS, Coolant pipes leaking, suspension components need replacing after 10 years. Make sure the brakes are in good condition and you want to see good quality tyres, not Chinese cheapies.

 

 

[Stephen Auty]

Also look into "bore scoring" and how to identify it. It's probably the most expensive fix if your engine has it or develops it.

[Lotusboyuk]

Well I'm off to see one on Saturday. The owner seems to be a real car guy. Has just bought himself a 911 c4s and can't warrant 2 porches. Also owns a brand new golf r ABT edition and 2 other cars. Father has a RS6. So a car family. Gives me a better feeling that he is a car guy my misses said ha ha. Its done 72k and has a stack of bills Inc springs... Pipes... New discs and pads... 19" lightweight refurb rims in black.... Stainless exhaust with lifetime guarantee... Full bose.. Gearbox pan and gearbox service... A few ball joints have been done. Coating on paint etc etc. It's quite a list. 

 

I do have a better feeling tbh. He said the screen on the stereo has lost a couple of pixels over winter and the ac buttons started to wear but that's nothing really. 

[Woodhouse]

23 hours ago, Stephen Auty said:

Also look into "bore scoring" and how to identify it. It's probably the most expensive fix if your engine has it or develops it.

 

As Stephen says, this is potentially the most serious issue in these cars.  Having previously had two of these in the family for around 7 years, I have seen and heard enough first hand stories to realise this is a real issue, not just internet folk lore.  I advised my Son's best friend on the purchase of a car that had been bore scored and subject to a "cheap" DIY based repair and have seen plenty of posts on various forums over the last 10 plus years from owners who have suffered this fate.  A few years ago, I met a local part time sports car dealer who lives close to me and at that time, he had on his hands both a 997 Carrera S and 987 Cayman S which he'd bought for resale and both turned out to be bore scored. 

 

From everything I've seen, I would guess that the failure rate so far (obviously increasing over time) is in the 5-10% range.  So I accept there's a good chance that a prospective purchase is ok but I'm still personally uncomfortable with that level of risk.  I would not worry about IMS bearing failure on one of these cars as although there have been cases, the failure rate is very low.

 

The cost to fix bore scoring will range from £2-3k for the absolute minimum, based on DIY engine removal/strip/reassembly and professional replacement of one or two cylinder liners, to £10-12k for all 6 liners and other improvements.

 

I would only buy one of these 987S gen 1 cars if at least one of these circumstances applied:

-  Buying from very reputable dealer providing a warranty that covers bore scoring.  Most used car warranties, even from some Porsche independent specialists, won't cover it.  In many/most dealer sales, you would have to rely on the Sale of Goods Act for a legal claim, rather than their warranty, and would need to initiate it quickly following the purchase.

-  From a long term private owner who could assure me that the oil consumption was both acceptable (I wouldn't buy one if it was using more than 1 litre per 2000 miles, and I'd ideally be looking for more like 10k miles or better per litre) and also that the oil consumption was stable over a decent period (10k + miles).  Obviously, being able to trust the seller on this is crucial and if I had any doubts I'd walk away.  

-  A very recent borescope inspection has been done by a competent person.  However, these are not necessarily conclusive as good cars can show indications of scoring that might not actually be a problem.  

-  It was being sold as bore scored and the price allowed for a decent rebuild (so would have to be very cheap!) 

 

Having bought a good one, it's really important in my opinion to also know what you need to do to reduce the risk of it subsequently happening:

-  Frequent oil changes (6k max) with good quality fully synthetic oil 

-  Religious adherence to the warm up procedure - light throttle loads, keep revs between 2-3K max until both coolant and oil are fully warmed up (the 987 doesn't have an oil temp gauge but based on my experience with my current 981, the oil takes 2 to 3 times longer than the coolant to reach normal operating temperature)

-  Never ever (even when fully warmed up) labour the engine, i.e. high throttle / high torque at low RPM (i.e. below about 2500 rpm)

-  Use decent fuel (Shell V-Power if possible)

[Stephen Auty]

All the above is excellent information  and should be used to make a purchase but do bear in mind it's quite rare and also remember all cars/machines have their Achilles heal.

I bought a low mileage (19k) 987.1 Cayman S last year and was fully aware of the bore scoring issues but more than willing to take a small gamble for what is a fabulous and special little car and in reality not very expensive because it's often in the shadow of the 911. 

There is a theory that by fitting a low temp thermostat will help reduce the likelihood of developing bore scoring in the future and I'm going to fit one when I change the coolant this Spring.

 

 

[Lotusboyuk]

Well I was going this morning but that and other issues has now pretty much put me off and I'm thinking not to bother and maybe keep saving and try for a gen 2 as all the issues will have been resolved I Hope. Like I said originally "I think ha ha" i come from a modified lotus background and I never had a single big bill (in fact hardly any maintenance bills) in that for 10years and it was running 100bhp of nitrous. So all this I find very worrying. 

[Woodhouse]

Gen 2 cars might help you sleep at night but the gen 1 is still a great car and much cheaper.  The bore scoring risk is just an additional consideration on top of the other potential issues that all ageing cars (not just Porsche) will be prone to.  The gen 2 suffers from most of the issues affecting gen 1 which have already been mentioned in this thread.  And bear in mind the newest gen 2 is now around 8 years old.  

 

Like all cars, these have their weak points and cost money to keep in good shape.  I did all the maintenance on mine except geometry alignment myself, including clutch/flywheel/rear main seal replacement; suspension overhaul; discs and pads; coolant pipes; a/c condensers; window regulator; as well as scheduled maintenance.  I bought it with 47k miles and sold it with 78k and spent around £3.5K, mostly on parts.  If buying a gen 2, there's every likelihood that these items will need doing, whereas a slightly older gen 1 may well have already had them. 

 

By coincidence, just today I acted as go between in the purchase of my old gen 1 S by a good friend of mine.  It's a fantastic very high spec car and has been really well looked after by the chap who bought it from me about 18 months ago.  Had my friend not bought it, I would have been really tempted to buy it back myself.  In many ways, I prefer it to my 981S.  

 

So I am not saying do not buy a gen 1, just do your homework, keep a slush fund aside (a couple of £K is often mentioned on Porsche owner forums) and you should be fine. 

 

 

[John333]

 The gen 2 suffers from most of the issues affecting gen 1 which have already been mentioned in this thread.  And bear in mind the newest gen 2 is now around 8 years old.  
 

Hi

Just read the note above. I’ve looked back on the thread but there is no mention of issues the Gen2 has as per the Gen1. Appreciate the reference might be to other threads but can someone advise what the common issues are.?

 

I’ve got a Gen2 and I was led to believe after quite a bit of research (appreciating that cars can fail at any time) that Porsche went out of their way to address a lot of the problems they had with the Gen1.? So am really surprised the Gen2 suffers from most of the same problems? 

 

I believe for instance that the Gen2 doesn’t have an intermediate shaft so no IMS bearing to fail and I’ve not heard about a lot of Gen2 bore scoring compared to Gen1 (know there are some) so am really interested to understand why the Gen2 suffers most of the Gen1 problems?

 

If it’s things like AOS that’s fine, I can live with that as I’m replacing mine next week and 911 have the same issue but if they are identical then why are Gen2’s selling at £10k plus?

 

Sorry, but not sure about that comment and if they were identical I probably wouldn’t have taken the plunge in Cayman Gen2 ownership to be honest.. Same reason I didn’t buy an E92 M3...

 

Maybe I don’t appreciate the Gen2 reliability issues so I’d appreciate advice..?

 

Many thanks

 

Cheers

John

 

 

 

 

[GlosRich]

Hi John,

 

The Gen2 doesnt suffer with the engine problems, its all the other common stuff like, worn suspension bushes, leaking coolant pipes, stone damage to the aircon radiators etc etc.

 

Rich

[Woodhouse]

John, 

 

As Rich says, the main difference between gen 1 and 2 is the gen 2 doesn't suffer from bore scoring to anything like the extent that the gen 2 does.  The IMS bearing risk in the gen 1 is very low so not a discriminator.  Pretty much everything else appears to be just as susceptible to wear out or failure on the gen 2 as the gen 1. 

 

It was the case a year or two ago that the gen 2 premium was in the same parish as a decent engine rebuild on s gen 1.  So the choice was to pay the premium up front (and expect to get the majority of it back on resale) with a gen 2.  Or accept the 5-10% (probably significantly less over say a 2 year ownership period providing the car is sound when you buy it) risk of the unrecoverable cost of an engine rebuild if the worst happened with a gen 1 (say £5k for a cheap fix to sell the car on). 

 

So in my view, taking into account an older gen 1 may have already had some significant expenditure that a younger gen 2 still faces, the difference in financial risks/costs between the two was not clear cut.  The gen 2 premium has reduced a bit recently so maybe there is a stronger case for it but over a typical ownership period, I'd still recon 97+% of gen 1 owners will have no worse an overall cost of ownership experience compared to gen 2 owners, and for about 50% of the initial outlay.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Woodhouse
Typo

[John333]

Hi 
Many thanks for the replies, much appreciated. Agree that both generations are great cars and not a lot between them.

Sounds like the common issues are typical for older cars of most makes such as suspension and chassis joint wear etc. Just did a lot of similar work on our family Qashqai to get it through it’s MOT..

Right or wrong I just went for the youngest model I could afford at the time... 

Cheers

John