Tidy 987.2 for sale

[jc848]

9 hours ago, mc5 said:

Some nice examples being posted. I have a 2.9 which im pretty happy with and having recently test driven an m2 although faster still think i prefer the trusty cayman. Is there much difference between the 2.9 vs gen 2 3.4. Feel mines fast enough for blasting round the local roads but....

Before I bought my 3.4 I test drove a 2.9, the biggest difference is torque at lower revs between the two. For road driving it just means that there isn’t a need to rev it out all the time and I can leave it in 3rd even on spirited drives which I find a bit more relaxing. 

[Porschaholic]

On 27/04/2022 at 20:20, Andrea said:

 

Only have this in hand but you can see the white console. And the dashboard trims are piano black like the exterior mirror/vents from the R. 

 

Gosh!  I like this👍🏼

[Porschaholic]

On 27/04/2022 at 20:20, Andrea said:

 

Only have this in hand but you can see the white console. And the dashboard trims are piano black like the exterior mirror/vents from the R. 

 

Gosh!  I like this👍🏼

[Andrea]

3 hours ago, Porschaholic said:

Gosh!  I like this👍🏼

 

Thank you! 

[Julian987]

On 26/04/2022 at 11:32, MartinF6 said:

It got to £16 something last time round when it had a reserve, be interesting to see if it ends up going for less. Previous bid price looked good to me. That kind of money for any gen 1 with the 3.4 M97 lump (unless it already has a high quality rebuild) is decent if you ask me.

 

 

Did you win?

 

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2010-porsche-987-2-cayman-s

 

It had the extended leather! this had you name on it surely?

 

£20K for a Gen 2 S with less than 40K miles and that spec, total bargain in the scheme of things.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Julian987

[MartinF6]

No, didn't bid. It's been mucked about with too much. Hard to know what to make of the price. I think the mods narrow the market quite a bit so it's not really representative. Think it would have sold for more if it was standard. But it does reflect how slow the market is right now up to a point and it was a pretty good deal for someone who wanted a modded car. Seller had the car advertised for £27.5k which always looked optimistic for a private car.

 

That 30k miles gen one S on CC also went for miles less than most gen one sellers are attempting to get right now, WBAC took about 7.5% off their valuation of gen two 987s this week and is now about 15-20% down on the peak at the end of last year, and generally very little is selling. Ashgood have a 3.4 Gen 2 up for £24k and even that hasn't sold super quickly. I thought that might go really quickly.

 

On CarGurus you can see which cars have had price cuts and it's quite a few. Will probably take a while for reality to really kick in, for the low demand to pull advertised prices down. There are quite a few high priced cars at dealers who I suspect will be reluctant to reduce which will add some lag. But eventually they'll have to give.

 

Not hugely relevant for me as I'd rather have a car sooner than save a couple of grand waiting for months for the market to adjust to lower demand, but I think prices are generally headed down not up. Market is quite slow, especially as it's spring and normally you'd expect it to be picking up right now.

[Julian987]

i hear you yet I'd be very surprised that those mods can't be returned back to stock at some point if required....still seems like a heck of a deal to me. 

[Andrea]

4 hours ago, MartinF6 said:

No, didn't bid. It's been mucked about with too much. Hard to know what to make of the price. I think the mods narrow the market quite a bit so it's not really representative. Think it would have sold for more if it was standard. But it does reflect how slow the market is right now up to a point and it was a pretty good deal for someone who wanted a modded car. Seller had the car advertised for £27.5k which always looked optimistic for a private car.

 

That 30k miles gen one S on CC also went for miles less than most gen one sellers are attempting to get right now, WBAC took about 7.5% off their valuation of gen two 987s this week and is now about 15-20% down on the peak at the end of last year, and generally very little is selling. Ashgood have a 3.4 Gen 2 up for £24k and even that hasn't sold super quickly. I thought that might go really quickly.

 

On CarGurus you can see which cars have had price cuts and it's quite a few. Will probably take a while for reality to really kick in, for the low demand to pull advertised prices down. There are quite a few high priced cars at dealers who I suspect will be reluctant to reduce which will add some lag. But eventually they'll have to give.

 

Not hugely relevant for me as I'd rather have a car sooner than save a couple of grand waiting for months for the market to adjust to lower demand, but I think prices are generally headed down not up. Market is quite slow, especially as it's spring and normally you'd expect it to be picking up right now.

 

Sorry Martin but that car looks great, well kept, low mileage and great specs. The mods are almost non existent......a flywheel, exhaust and remap (possibly an IPD Plenum and TB) ....I think 20K for such a car is a bargain and 27k would actually been a fair price in the current climate anyway.  (Also not such a thing a gen2 S making 380 horses anyway)

 

A lot of people buy these mods afterwards and they are £££.....you've got them already on the car.....that's a no brainer! 

 

 

PS. those mods don't narrow the market at all. If it was a full body kit etc I'd understand...but these are invisible and easy reversable mods. You are overthinking it 😅

 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Andrea

[Ginginho]

23 minutes ago, Andrea said:

PS. those mods don't narrow the market at all. If it was a full body kit etc I'd understand...but these are invisible and easy reversable mods. You are overthinking it 😅

 

 

Have to disagree there and I know that's not just me!

[Andrea]

56 minutes ago, Ginginho said:

Have to disagree there and I know that's not just me!

 

Sorry but 90% of owners buy an aftermarket exhaust on these cars. A quaife diff it's something rare and nice to have. Maybe I could agree with the flywheel not being common. 

 

If the car had a custom widebody, fully stripped interior and welded cage ok, but this car in just stock really.

[MartinF6]

3 hours ago, Andrea said:

 

Sorry but 90% of owners buy an aftermarket exhaust on these cars. A quaife diff it's something rare and nice to have. Maybe I could agree with the flywheel not being common. 

 

If the car had a custom widebody, fully stripped interior and welded cage ok, but this car in just stock really.

 

 

With respect, that is not true. Not even close to 90% of these cars have aftermarket exhausts. It's probably not even 10%.  And modified cars definitely do have a much, much narrower market. Which is almost certainly why that car only bid to £19,027. I think the market is pretty cool right now, but that's still very low for a gen 2 3.4 on sub 40k miles. It would have got to at least £22k without the mods and probably quite a bit more, at a guess probably about £24k.

 

For me I don't want the exhaust, and the one fitted is old and corroded and doubtful you'd get anything for it selling it. So, there would be significant cost putting a factory unit back on. It's got a brace bar fitted in the cabin across the rear bulkhead I wouldn't want and unclear how much trim has been chopped about fitting it. Unknown cost sorting that.

 

It's got H&R springs which are too low for me (I know this as categorical fact because I had them fitted to one of my previous 987 Caymans and the front axle is too low for the strut geometry and knackers the way the car drives, I would not use them again, I'd go with R springs if lowering), that would a significant cost putting either PASM or R springs back in. I wouldn't want the roll bars, either. It has incorrect plastic seats rather than leather seats retrofitted, so I'd need to source seats.

 

I also don't want the LWFW. I've driven a couple of 987 Caymans fitted with LWFWs and the benefit is small, IMO. Meanwhile, it's hard to truly know the potential long term engine reliability downsides. There is at least some potential for a LWFW to cause engine damage in the long term. I don't think the risk is very high, but given I don't think the benefit is terribly big, I'm not interested in taking the risk. So, that's another big cost.

 

Long story short, the majority of what has been done to the car, I wouldn't want. It's probably all reversible, but even at £20k, the car wouldn't actually be value to me because it's a long list of things I'd need to sort that would cost thousands of pounds and loads of hassle and time. If it was only the exhaust or only the H&R springs, I could consider it, but it's a huge amount of stuff that would need addressing for me. Forget it.

 

I'm not anti mods. Actually, I usually mod my cars. But mods are terribly personal and the way that car has been done is not for me. For sure, that car is a really great deal at that price for someone who wants all those specific mods. It's not a great deal if you're going to have to pay to get most of the changes reversed!

 

 

[Andrea]

1 hour ago, MartinF6 said:

 

 

With respect, that is not true. Not even close to 90% of these cars have aftermarket exhausts. It's probably not even 10%.  And modified cars definitely do have a much, much narrower market. Which is almost certainly why that car only bid to £19,027. I think the market is pretty cool right now, but that's still very low for a gen 2 3.4 on sub 40k miles. It would have got to at least £22k without the mods and probably quite a bit more, at a guess probably about £24k.

 

For me I don't want the exhaust, and the one fitted is old and corroded and doubtful you'd get anything for it selling it. So, there would be significant cost putting a factory unit back on. It's got a brace bar fitted in the cabin across the rear bulkhead I wouldn't want and unclear how much trim has been chopped about fitting it. Unknown cost sorting that.

 

It's got H&R springs which are too low for me (I know this as categorical fact because I had them fitted to one of my previous 987 Caymans and the front axle is too low for the strut geometry and knackers the way the car drives, I would not use them again, I'd go with R springs if lowering), that would a significant cost putting either PASM or R springs back in. I wouldn't want the roll bars, either. It has incorrect plastic seats rather than leather seats retrofitted, so I'd need to source seats.

 

I also don't want the LWFW. I've driven a couple of 987 Caymans fitted with LWFWs and the benefit is small, IMO. Meanwhile, it's hard to truly know the potential long term engine reliability downsides. There is at least some potential for a LWFW to cause engine damage in the long term. I don't think the risk is very high, but given I don't think the benefit is terribly big, I'm not interested in taking the risk. So, that's another big cost.

 

Long story short, the majority of what has been done to the car, I wouldn't want. It's probably all reversible, but even at £20k, the car wouldn't actually be value to me because it's a long list of things I'd need to sort that would cost thousands of pounds and loads of hassle and time. If it was only the exhaust or only the H&R springs, I could consider it, but it's a huge amount of stuff that would need addressing for me. Forget it.

 

I'm not anti mods. Actually, I usually mod my cars. But mods are terribly personal and the way that car has been done is not for me. For sure, that car is a really great deal at that price for someone who wants all those specific mods. It's not a great deal if you're going to have to pay to get most of the changes reversed!

 

 

 

It's clear you aren't into modded cars and don't follow the market of those.  

 

So according to you an aftermarket exhaust (most likely put on the car by the last owner few thousands miles ago) is rusty, but a factory one from the day the car left the factory instead is perfect 😅 

That crossbar only requires 2 small holes on each panel. Each panel cost £40. Again you don't sound very familiar with the whole mods scene.

 

H&R springs might be low for your taste, to say that mechanically speaking they are incorrect or don't work it's not right. They do. Infact R springs aren't anything special. it's a part designed with cost saving in mind and mass production.

 

Car sold for low, this doesn't mean it's worth that. It's a simple fact of the right buyer not meeting this car in the right time and space. Doug sold his modded Gen2 S and I referred his car to my mate Chris. He literally was looking for that exact car. It's a matter of being at the right time on the right place. 

 

This said, I can't wait for you to find the right car. And I do sincerely wish you good luck. 

[MartinF6]

No, I never said the factory exhaust would be perfect. I never implied that either. Why make things up, is doesn't help with having a civil discussionb I said the fitted exhaust is corroded which it is:

 

 

I do not think you could sell that exhuast for much money. The factory exhaust would be corroded too, but unless actually rotten through, would not present an immediate cost, that is the point, which I would have thought was fairly obvious. On that car, I'd be removing an exhaust I doubt I could sell for a lot of money and would need to source either a good used or new factory unit. Plus labour costs.

 

As for the H&R springs, I have fitted them to a 987 Cayman and the front axle is too low. As for clearly not understanding things, I'd have to say you clearly don't understand Macpherson strut kinematics. They inherently only operate correctly over a narrow range. Initially, as you lower the car, you gain negative camber, but then as you lower the car further, you actually gain positive camber. The geometry of the standard front 9x7 axle is not designed to go as low as the H&R springs take them. So, you're actually gaining positive camber under compression and also running out of travel. That is 100% percent what happens with the H&R springs on the front axle. They are good for styling, not for driving hard.

 

The R springs are not 'cheap' or cost limited, afraid that's something else you just made up. They are nothing terribly special, but they are as low as you can go with the front strut before running into geometry and travel problems. 997 GT3 is on the same platform but has different front suspension arms which change the geometry and allow the car to be lower while maintain optimal kinematics. If you slam a 987 on standard arms, you do not get a good handling car.

 

And as a matter of fact I mod most of my cars, I just have different tastes and priorities to you. I could look at the stuff you do and say you don't understand mods because they are not things I would like. Would that help the discussion?

Edited April 30, 2022 by MartinF6

[Julian987]

I still feel you are being too picky considering how few have stitched leather. To rewind back on those mods, a new exhaust, springs yadda yadda, even if it was £5k, that is still a great buy. That exhaust might just need some ice blasting 

 

I suspect it will have been bought by a dealer and we’ll see it relisted with a markup….in my opinion is the best deal I have ever seen in the past 3 years on a Gen 2 S…the price is circa 3 years ago. It’s a mind-blowing deal.

 

But hey it’s clear it wasn’t for you and it’s your money after all.

good luck with the search!

 

 

 

 

 

[MartinF6]

40 minutes ago, Andrea said:

Car sold for low, this doesn't mean it's worth that. It's a simple fact of the right buyer not meeting this car in the right time and space. 

 

 

On this point what you do not appear to understand is that had the car been standard, it would have had more bidders. A trader would have paid more than £19k plus fees for it. A clean car on that mileage would have had trade bids up to at least £21k just from the trade. That would give plenty of margin to market the car and make money. Very likely private buyers would have pushed to at least low to mid £20s.

 

But the mods narrowed the market for the car. With those mods, it needed exactly the right buyer to be looking at the right time, whereas a standard car would have a broad market that would generate higher bids without needing exactly the right buyer. Any of a number of traders would have picked it up.

 

It's the very definition of narrowing the market and it resulted in a lower transaction price. It demonstrably and as a matter of objective fact made the car worth less. There is almost no probability you'd get a standard, clean 3.4 on sub 40k miles selling for £19k plus fees on CC.

[MartinF6]

Just now, Julian987 said:

I still feel you are being too picky considering how few have stitched leather. To rewind back on those mods, a new exhaust, springs yadda yadda, even if it was £5k, that is still a great buy. That exhaust might just need some ice blasting 

 

I suspect it will have been bought by a dealer and we’ll see it relisted with a markup….in my opinion is the best deal I have ever seen in the past 3 years on a Gen 2 S…the price is circa 3 years ago. It’s a mind-blowing deal.

 

But hey it’s clear it wasn’t for you and it’s your money after all.

good luck with the search!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The exhaust might be fine. The point is that I don't want that exhaust. It would have to come off and that is bound to cost money, net.

 

At £25k with everything removed it would be a decent buy. But that's after a lot of effort and without much clarity / guarantee that is what it would end up costing. The price reflects the car and current state of the market. Trade prices on these cars are 15-20% down on the peak late last year, very little is selling. I don't think the market is nearly as buoyant as you seem to think. Hence the prices of the two most recent 987s on CC.

 

Prices can go down as well as up.

 

As for the leather thing, I'd rather buy a clean car with no extended leather and fit that than this black car that for me would need a long list of works. Most of these cars have very few significant mods, so ruling out one like this car is not dramatically reducing my options. Once I got the spec list, I wasn't even remotely tempted.

[Aaron]

@MartinF6 How long have you been looking for a car?

 

It can actually be quite cost effective to buy a modified vehicle and return it to stock, especially if you can do the work yourself.  The flywheel is the big unknown here as I know most wouldn't be willing to undertake such an ordeal, but everything else seemed reasonable to revert for less than the stock market uplift.  Alas, I realise this is in hindsight and the ship has sailed.

 

The issue with holding out for the perfect car is that it may never come up!  It would be a shame to waste the great weather we're currently having.

 

@Andrea The majority of Porsche owners and buyers are purist minded - a modified car is generally off-putting.  I think it's fair to say it's extremely unlikely that 90% of Cayman owners are putting aftermarket exhausts on their car.

[MartinF6]

7 minutes ago, Aaron said:

 

It can actually be quite cost effective to buy a modified vehicle and return it to stock, especially if you can do the work yourself.  The flywheel is the big unknown here as I know most wouldn't be willing to undertake such an ordeal, but everything else seemed reasonable to revert for less than the stock market uplift.  Alas, I realise this is in hindsight and the ship has sailed.

 

The issue with holding out for the perfect car is that it may never come up!  It would be a shame to waste the great weather we're currently having.

 

 

I don't entirely disagree. But that car had so many things I didn't want on it. Almost everything on it that had been done I wouldn't want. Like I said, even the H&R springs wouldn't have been a deal breaker if that had been the only major issue. But the list was so long.

 

I've done the front springs myself on a 987, they are really easy. But I wouldn't fancy the rears! But eh exhaust, flywheel, I wouldn't even want the brakes. I'm happy with the standard brakes tweaked with the bigger MC from the GT3 / Turbo. I do loads of miles, don't want to be paying for more expensive discs etc. Again, if that was the only thing on the car I didn't want, it would be OK, but when there are about four really major things on the car I don't want, it's a non starter.

 

I didn't rule out that car for any one item, but because of the long list of items. Just way too many in the end for me.

Edited April 30, 2022 by MartinF6

[Aaron]

2 minutes ago, MartinF6 said:

 

 

I don't entirely disagree. But that car had so many things I didn't want on it. Almost everything on it that had been done I wouldn't want. Like I said, even the H&R springs wouldn't have been a deal breaker if that had been the only major issue. But the list was so long.

 

I've done the front springs myself on a 987, they are really easy. But I wouldn't fancy the rears! But eh exhaust, flywheel, I wouldn't even want the brakes. I'm happy with the standard brakes tweaked with the bigger MC from the GT3 / Turbo. I do loads of miles, don't want to be paying for more expensive discs etc. Again, if that was the only thing on the car I didn't want, it would be OK, but when there are about four really major things on the car I don't want, it's a non starter.

 

Admittedly, I haven't looked at the spec sheet of the particular vehicle, but my comment was more of a general statement.  If the total required changes were extreme, then I can certainly understand your position.  There is a line where it becomes more financial effort than gain.  It depends on how much you enjoy mechanical work and whether you would consider it a time investment rather than a hobby/enjoyable activity.

 

Nonetheless, I hope you find a car soon.  Good luck.

 

 

[MartinF6]

It'll also be my only car, so having it off the road loads to address all the issues doesn't appeal much either.

 

I think I'll leave it all there re this thread other than probably popping back and letting you know if I have bought one. I feel like it looks like I'm trying to talk the market down, and I don't mean to do that. Just can't not see that trade bids are dropping, very little is selling, a fair few advertised prices are being cut and the last two cars on CC went for what would be very cheap if the market is the same now as the end of last year.

 

Personally I think even as an owner prices going up is a bad thing. It tends to make parts and labour more expensive and people use the cars less. Just look at air cooled 911s. Engine rebuilds are now about 3-4x the price they were 10 years ago for the same work (you can't put all that down to inflation, it's mostly because the cars are now megabucks and the clientele is less price sensitive) and people are too scared to use what has become a valuable asset.