Cayman S Geo Setting - H&R -35mm springs 7/15 spacers

[Mavrik]

Just fitted H&R -35mm lowering springs on my CS.1 non pasm, paired with 7mm/15mm spacers - Running on 18" replica 911 "964 Bad Boys" Veloce RS Alloys - Shod with AD08R Advan Neova 235/40 & 265/40 approx 4-5mm tread.

 

It'll obviously need the geo setting up but has anyone got any figures I could give the geo guy (will be using a supertracker STR410 computer gizmo)

 

I do maybe 3 evenings at Brands Indy & 1 on the GP a year so would like a compromise between road manners & track work?

 

Am I correct in thinking I should run Cayman R geo settings?? ... Any numbers you have will be greatly received 😉

 

Regards, Julian...

Edited May 27, 2020 by Mavrik

[Lennym1984]

I don't think the Cayman R geo is anything particularly special. It's basically the stock geo but 20mm lower (which increases the camber). I'd max out the front camber, set it to neutral toe, and then set the rear to stock or Cayman r of you want (although without the stiffer arb the rear may push) 

[banjo]

after fitting H and R springs to my old 987.1 i asked for the cayman R geo settings.its stock rear with more front neg camber.car handled so much better than the standard suspension/settings.

[Andrea]

There is very little negative camber you can gain at the front with stock components. While lowered the rear shows easily -2 degrees, the front won't come even close.  R geometry isn't anything special really. 
 

What you need is GT3 LCAs. I have a spare set if interested. 

[Mavrik]

Should I make sure that the front strut top mounts are SET as close as possible to the centre line of the car in the elongated strut mount slots?

[Lennym1984]

Yes...ish but you probably want them to be equal side to side. Due to worn components, manufacturing tolerances etc you may have one side with bigger camber than the other.Unless the difference is huge (which would indicate another problem) you probably won't notice it but given that you are paying for a geo, you may as well get it equal.

 

On mine (with 100K dampers/springs/top mounts), maxxing out the top mount slots meant that the o/s would go to ~1.5 whilst the nearside would only go to ~1.2. 

[Mavrik]

So... Should I be asking the geo guy for

FRONT: 

Zero Toe (or even a smidge of toe out to speed up turn in?)

-1.5 camber

REAR:

Toe In 0.09 ?

-2.5 camber

Edited May 27, 2020 by Mavrik

[Mavrik]

1 hour ago, Andrea said:

 

What you need is GT3 LCAs. I have a spare set if interested. 

--------------------------------------

I would love to be able to afford to upgrade a lot of components to proper motorsport spec but alas, as a humble Nurse my pockets are not deep lol & I don't track it that often to warrant the extra expense tbh?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Mavrik

[Lennym1984]

56 minutes ago, Mavrik said:

Should I make sure that the front strut top mounts are SET as close as possible to the centre line of the car in the elongated strut mount slots?

 

8 minutes ago, Mavrik said:

So... Should I be asking the geo guy for

FRONT: 

Zero Toe

-1.5 camber

REAR:

Toe In 0.09 ?

-2.5 camber

 

I'd basically just max out the front so that it is even side to side. With a 35mm drop you may get -1.5 or you may get less.

 

For the rear, you want to try and balance the camber with the front (too much camber at the rear may cause it to push - understeer - in corners). I would aim for rear camber to be a little more than the front but -2.5 may be a bit too much. Why don't you go for ~1.5 in front and ~1.75 in the rear.

 

[Mavrik]

@Lennym1984 I did hear that + .5 difference in F/R camber should be the goal??

 

What about toe though?

[Lennym1984]

2 minutes ago, Mavrik said:

@Lennym1984 I did hear that + .5 difference in F/R camber should be the goal??

 

What about toe though?

 

I am not an expert but It  all depends how you want the car to handle. From the factory they are setup to understeer. The rear has much wider tyres and so even if they roll a bit in the corner, you are still going to have more contact patch. On track, the fronts of my old Boxster would wear the outside edge whereas the rears were much more even (which would suggest that I wasn't rolling the rear tyres unduly)

 

On the rear you want toe in. The stock setting is something like 5' +/- 5'

[Andrea]

28 minutes ago, Mavrik said:

--------------------------------------

I would love to be able to afford to upgrade a lot of components to proper motorsport spec but alas, as a humble Nurse my pockets are not deep lol & I don't track it that often to warrant the extra expense tbh?

 

 

 

 

 

....the truth is if you track your car such components help to even the tyre wear saving you lot of £££.  But as you said if you don't track your car then is pointless.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Lennym1984 said:

 

 

I'd basically just max out the front so that it is even side to side. With a 35mm drop you may get -1.5 or you may get less.

 

For the rear, you want to try and balance the camber with the front (too much camber at the rear may cause it to push - understeer - in corners). I would aim for rear camber to be a little more than the front but -2.5 may be a bit too much. Why don't you go for ~1.5 in front and ~1.75 in the rear.

 

Just reading this again we've said the same yes sorry. Rear camber should be less than front. Having -2.5 rear and -1.5 front is a bit silly.....your car will just "plow" forward....and the not having much negative camber at the front is the reason why your outer edges wears quickly. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Andrea

[Mavrik]

@Andrea

Throw some recommended numbers at me? 

 

i.e toe in or out & camber 😉

 

Need a compromise between road manners & track flickability (if that's possible lol)

[Lennym1984]

2 minutes ago, Andrea said:

 

I'm sorry but I disagree, rear camber should be less than front. having -2.5 rear and -1.5 front is a bit silly.....your car will just "plow" forward....and the not having much negative camber at the front is the reason why your outer edges wears quickly. 

 

Actually, I think we agree I was not advocating -2.5 on the rear. I was simply suggesting to have rear camber a little larger (more negative) than the front to preserve the "safe" handling Porsche has dialled in.

 

The outer tyre wear on my Boxster was indeed a lack of front camber (I no longer have that car or that geo!). My point here was that the rear camber on that car was not an issue with regards to tyre wear and so huge rear camber or an additional -0.5 degrees on the rear probably wasn't needed.

 

Ah having re-read the post I see that he was suggesting PLUS 0.5 camber front to rear (so less on the rear)

[Andrea]

Just now, Mavrik said:

@Andrea

Throw some recommended numbers at me? 

 

i.e toe in or out & camber 😉

 

Need a compromise between road manners & track flickability (if that's possible lol)

 

 

If you use the car both track and road then toe should be ZERO (if you ask me) this is a compromise to save tyre life. An alternative you ca use a bit of toe OUT at the front and IN at the rear...but very little!   

 

But my main concern would be with your front camber to be fair....have you considered Camber plates maybe?

[Andrea]

3 minutes ago, Lennym1984 said:

 

 

 

Ah having re-read the post I see that he was suggesting PLUS 0.5 camber front to rear (so less on the rear)

 

 

Yeah sorry I was reading too fast.

 

What we can all agree on is that suspensions set ups it's a trial and error procedure....because we all have different sway bars, different tyres, different tyre pressure and ultimately different driving styles! 

 

[Lennym1984]

With all of that in mind...

 

To the OP, if you are not sure what settings you want, why don't you take it to a decent alignment centre (Centre Gravity or similar) and get them to recommend one for you? The settings that work best on track will be different from those that work on a cratered b-road. A specialist will take this into account and find you the best set of compromises (compromise being the key word here).

 

As an example, toe out on a twisty track may allow quicker turn in but on a cratered/cambered/rough b-road will lead to a very "lively" ride. The Porsche recommended settings are a compromise between tyre wear, handling, safety and stability. What you need to find, is the compromise which works for your driving - A specialist will be able to help you here.

 

 

 

[Mavrik]

@Lennym1984

Yeah but I'm not very trusting of "standard technicians" who maybe just throw a baseline set of manufacturer numbers into the computer from a database & follow it like its gospel... There are no "specialist" geo centres near me but one of my local indis does have a proper geo station...

[Lennym1984]

The issue is (as Andrea has said) that suspension geometry is not a binary thing (ie. there is no "right" setting for any given car). Any change you make will likely have pros and cons to it and so unless you know what you like or what you are comfortable with,you may end up with something that doesn't suit you.

 

Personally, I would start with zero toe on front, max front camber, and stock rear (Porsche spec) alignment. The compromises here will be limited and if you find the front too lively for the type of driving you do, you could easily then add in a bit more toe (more toe in).

 

You can then use this setup as your baseline and see how it performs on road/track and what you may like to change in the future.

 

 

[Andrea]

The only concern with places like Centre of Gravity is to understand if it's worth the higher price when you have stock components and limited adjustability.

 

I know A-Line in Dudley and the guy is a top bloke who really knows his stuff having worked in the motorsport for years, yet he charges way less. 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Andrea