Bore Scoring on 987.2's Now?

[Alan W]

Watching the JayEmm on Cars video below earlier and he says that there are rumours that bore scoring issues are affecting Gen 2 cars now as well as Gen 1 cars (fast fwd to 15:37).

 

It's the first time I've heard of this - has anyone else heard of this happening to a Gen 2 car?

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Alan W

[Julian987]

I have heard of this on Gen 2’s and 981’s…how widespread it is no idea. Hopefully it is far rarer than in Gen 1’s

[Cornholio]

Can't understand why anyone would watch this guy's terrible videos. 

 

One of many self proclaimed YouTube experts. All utter drivel.

[Alan W]

19 hours ago, Cornholio said:

Can't understand why anyone would watch this guy's terrible videos. 

 

One of many self proclaimed YouTube experts. All utter drivel.

 

In your opinion, to which you are entitled.

 

However, he has over 280,000 subscribers and his channel has received over 87 million views so I don't think he'll be too bothered if you're not one of them.

[Ben]

I too watched the video and was surprised to hear the comments about the potential for gen 2 engine bore scoring.  Did a bit of digging and it does seem to be a thing, but on a tiny scale (so far anyway).  It seems to only be the DFI engines that are potentially impacted, and a myriad of different theories and opinions as to why scoring may occur.  But nothing on the scale of the gen 1 issues to date.  

 

 

 

[wtaite01]

Yep, I would imagine any engine could suffer from bore scoring, it's the rate of issues that's important. There's still no definitive data on this from Gen 1s let a alone Gen 2s so I'm not going to worry about it too much. 

 

Re JayEmm, appreciate that some people aren't a fan, but merely the sheer number of different cars he's driven gives him contextual information that I could only dream of, so I definitely give some weight to his opinions based on that at least. He doesn't seem to do a whole lot of driving on track though so I look to others for their opinions there. All inputs to my mental model.

[Cornholio]

On 25/05/2023 at 18:07, Alan W said:

 

In your opinion, to which you are entitled.

 

However, he has over 280,000 subscribers and his channel has received over 87 million views so I don't think he'll be too bothered if you're not one of them.

 

Of course it's my opinion, it was me that wrote it, would you expect me to put in someone else's view? Is that not the point of an online forum, to read different opinions. I don't require your permission to state mine but perhaps you feel only your own is worthy?

 

I'm sure he's not bothered in any way about what I have to say, why on earth would he be? What an odd thing to say.

Also, the amount of people that watch or follow is certainly no indication of the quality of anyone's videos. 

 

To his credit he has made himself an income from driving mainly other peoples car for a short period while  repeating common opinions on the particular car he's driving as passing them off as his own. Good for him.

I actually watched a few of his videos during the many quarantine periods I had to do, it seems he simply repeats Chris Harris, Autocar and all the rest. Nothing much of his own input to give, although he's certainly not alone there.

 

Still, people seem to enjoy them, so that's great for him and them. For me it's along the lines of Lorraine or the other morning TV stuff, boring, mundane and nothing new of any interest to say. 

[MartinF6]

On 26/05/2023 at 11:40, wtaite01 said:

Yep, I would imagine any engine could suffer from bore scoring, it's the rate of issues that's important. There's still no definitive data on this from Gen 1s let a alone Gen 2s so I'm not going to worry about it too much. 

 

Re JayEmm, appreciate that some people aren't a fan, but merely the sheer number of different cars he's driven gives him contextual information that I could only dream of, so I definitely give some weight to his opinions based on that at least. He doesn't seem to do a whole lot of driving on track though so I look to others for their opinions there. All inputs to my mental model.

 

 

He may have driven a lot of cars, but he massively over estimates his expertise. In this video, for example, he keeps going on about the car having extended leather on the doors and dash and how it lifts the interior. The car he's driving has the plastic dash and door cards.

 

This is typical of his videos. He routinely makes basic errors. Making errors in itself is fine. We all make errors. It's the way he pontificates and presents himself as an expert while making routine basic errors is the problem. In other words, he talks about things he doesn't understand with unwarranted certainty. You can't trust anything he says, because he routinely talks about things he doesn't know or understand well as if he does.

 

His analysis of cars dynamics is likewise mediocre at best. Generally, you'd be well advised not to draw many if any conclusions about cars from this particular YouTube channel. It's not a good source of info or analysis.

 

Anyway, re the OP's query re 987.2 bore scoring, again, the source here is poor. The MA1 / 9A1 engine can have bore issues. This is not news or a rumour. But the problem is not remotely comparable to the scoring problem on larger M96/7 engines. Bore issues on a 987.2 are uncommon.

[MartinF6]

On 25/05/2023 at 18:07, Alan W said:

 

In your opinion, to which you are entitled.

 

However, he has over 280,000 subscribers and his channel has received over 87 million views so I don't think he'll be too bothered if you're not one of them.

 

 

Not that popularity is a good measure of content quality, but given how long he's been at it and how hard he's been trying to make it as an automotive youtuber, 280k subs is pretty low.

 

In terms of YT revenue, the channel will be marginal in terms of financial viability with 280k subs. That's ok to make a living doing talking head stuff to camera behind a desk. Car vids are much more expensive and time consuming to produce. And 280k subs doesn't cut it for making good money in that context.

 

He'll have other sources of income and the channel could well be a glorified vanity project. It certainly won't be paying for him to buy and run a 550, a 430 and an F12, that's for sure.

[Alan W]

2 hours ago, MartinF6 said:

 

 

Not that popularity is a good measure of content quality, but given how long he's been at it and how hard he's been trying to make it as an automotive youtuber, 280k subs is pretty low.

 

In terms of YT revenue, the channel will be marginal in terms of financial viability with 280k subs. That's ok to make a living doing talking head stuff to camera behind a desk. Car vids are much more expensive and time consuming to produce. And 280k subs doesn't cut it for making good money in that context.

 

He'll have other sources of income and the channel could well be a glorified vanity project. It certainly won't be paying for him to buy and run a 550, a 430 and an F12, that's for sure.

 

I don’t disagree with you about the quality of the channel content Martin.  My comment that you have quoted was made in response to the rather arrogant and demeaning comments made by a member above and the video was only posted because of the mention of the bore scoring on Gen. 2 cars that I have not come across before.

[Aaron]

Bore scoring on a gen 2 is no more common than on any other car.  If it was, this forum and other sources like it are where you would likely hear it first.

 

I have little interest in watching the video myself, but I'm going to guess it's just a comment buried in there somewhere with no source or origin of the info.  I would take it with the largest pinch of salt, personally.

[wtaite01]

16 hours ago, MartinF6 said:

 

 

He may have driven a lot of cars, but he massively over estimates his expertise. In this video, for example, he keeps going on about the car having extended leather on the doors and dash and how it lifts the interior. The car he's driving has the plastic dash and door cards.

 

This is typical of his videos. He routinely makes basic errors. Making errors in itself is fine. We all make errors. It's the way he pontificates and presents himself as an expert while making routine basic errors is the problem. In other words, he talks about things he doesn't understand with unwarranted certainty. You can't trust anything he says, because he routinely talks about things he doesn't know or understand well as if he does.

 

His analysis of cars dynamics is likewise mediocre at best. Generally, you'd be well advised not to draw many if any conclusions about cars from this particular YouTube channel. It's not a good source of info or analysis.

 

Anyway, re the OP's query re 987.2 bore scoring, again, the source here is poor. The MA1 / 9A1 engine can have bore issues. This is not news or a rumour. But the problem is not remotely comparable to the scoring problem on larger M96/7 engines. Bore issues on a 987.2 are uncommon.

The extended leather piece here was an obvious error to those with knowledge of 987s, you're quite right.

 

To be clear, I'm not trying to claim that he's a journo with the experience and expertise of a Sutcliffe, Meaden or Harris, just that driving a lot of different performance cars from many years, segments and price points does give him the context needed to to deliver an informed opinion on how one car behaves relative to others within the bounds of what he is able to extract from the cars and his ability to judge them. That last part is crucial, and to me it is an unknown quantity, but I suspect that he's less capable than the aforementioned journos as they have all competed in motorsport at pretty high levels (Nordschleife 24hrs for example), at least on an ad-hoc basis, plus have many, many, many years of journoing, hence taking a road car to and beyond their (much lower) limits should be relatively easy for them and they have the context needed to make judgements.

 

For me then, I see all of these as inputs to my mental model on what car I might look to have a go in. While I don't think that JayEmm's opinion is the last the word, I do think it's of some relevance within the bounds above. I'm always going to give more weight to opinion of others who I think are more qualified though!

[Neil_jdmr]

Is this topic about bore scoring on a dfi or Jayemm's videos?

 

I don't mind his videos but as with everything take it with a pinch of salt.  Also own a 981 so interested in the bore score issue if there is one. Has there actually been any cases beyond normal wear from pistons?

[Alan W]

3 hours ago, Neil_jdmr said:

Is this topic about bore scoring on a dfi or Jayemm's videos?

 

The Topic was posted with the intention of confirming if the mention of bore scoring in the video was a thing and known to members as it was news to me.  The Topic was not posted to showcase the video and hence why I gave the time to fast forward to for the comment on bore scoring.

 

However, the Topic quickly became derailed and has become more about JayEmm , his videos and earnings from them.

[wtaite01]

6 hours ago, Alan W said:

 

The Topic was posted with the intention of confirming if the mention of bore scoring in the video was a thing and known to members as it was news to me.  The Topic was not posted to showcase the video and hence why I gave the time to fast forward to for the comment on bore scoring.

 

However, the Topic quickly became derailed and has become more about JayEmm , his videos and earnings from them.

 

Apologies Alan, you're quite right and I appreciate that you're looking for some useful information about this. I doubt anyone here will have hard data so my advice would be to ring around a few Indies and ask them if they're seeing and issues with bore scoring on 9A1 engines. They'll likely know if it's a genuine issue or just something that happens very occasionally like it could do on any engine. I think we'd all be interested in the results if you did!

Edited May 30, 2023 by wtaite01

[MartinF6]

On 30/05/2023 at 12:36, Alan W said:

 

The Topic was posted with the intention of confirming if the mention of bore scoring in the video was a thing and known to members as it was news to me.  The Topic was not posted to showcase the video and hence why I gave the time to fast forward to for the comment on bore scoring.

 

However, the Topic quickly became derailed and has become more about JayEmm , his videos and earnings from them.

 

 

If you post a source of info and the quality of that source is poor, it's inevitable that the discussion is going to touch on that. Moreover, it's important for anyone interested in this subject to understand that the quality of this particular source is low.

 

It's not really possible to make a post on a forum that will objectively prove something like this, but there are a few factors that might be considered.

 

The earliest 9A1 cars are now 15 years old (first 997.2 were delivered in late 2008). It did not take anything like that long for evidence of widespread scoring on the M96/7 to emerge.

 

It's quite hard to find a 9A1 car advertised with a replacement engine / rebuild. Not totally impossible, but they are very unusual. M97 cars with replacement engines / rebuilds are commonplace.

 

Hartech spent ages trying to source a 997.2 with a wrecked / scored engine to do some further engine development work:

 

http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?p=1644727

 

And the first reply by another well known Porsche mechanic to that post reminding people that they are still looking for a car:

 

"I always have an eye out just in case for one of these .. but as you know .. pretty damn rare and i've not even heard of one locally let alone seen one."

 

If 9A1 scoring is now a major "thing" why was Hartech struggling to find a car to work on?

 

Also note that in June 2022, Hartech in that thread says they've thus far repaired "5 or 6" 9A1/MA1 engines. That is a tiny number for one of the world's leading specialists rebuilding modern Porsche flat sixes and for context they've got 20 engines being rebuilt at any one time and do 100s per year. It's not remotely comparable and more than enough time has passed for any major issues to emerge.

 

I'm sure you could find a specialist somewhere who will say something scary. But I doubt you'll find one of the known good specialists whose opinion carries weight implying that 9A1/MA1 scoring is a major worry.

 

I will caveat that by saying the one exception is probably Flat Six Innovations in the US, who I would guess have probably said something negative. But they are well documented catastrophists and will tell you every engine ever is nanoseconds from catastrophic failure. Well, except for their hyper-expensive rebuilds, of course!

Edited June 4, 2023 by MartinF6