Real world difference between Cayman 987.2 S and R

[andygo]

I don't think (as the OP) that I will be swapping my S for an R at something like a £15k + premium. I was just interested in what an R was like compared to an S.

 

IMHO a BHP increase of more than 5-10 BHP would make the car definately more desirable, certainly for me. Who knows, I might change my mind in the future, but I don't want a garage Queen being mollycoddled because of overly high depreciation. As ever, it's whats best for one's individual circumstances and preferences.

 

Pleased it's encouraged such a lively debate. Crack on with more, its interesting!

[Andyoz]

10 minutes ago, andygo said:

I don't think (as the OP) that I will be swapping my S for an R at something like a £15k + premium. I was just interested in what an R was like compared to an S.

 

IMHO a BHP increase of more than 5-10 BHP would make the car definately more desirable, certainly for me. Who knows, I might change my mind in the future, but I don't want a garage Queen being mollycoddled because of overly high depreciation. As ever, it's whats best for one's individual circumstances and preferences.

 

Pleased it's encouraged such a lively debate. Crack on with more, its interesting!

 

If you get in an R it will feel more 'fidgety' on the road and the buckets just add to that feel.  Now that doesn't always transfer to being faster on a B road...

 

Try a decent map and aftermarket headers if you want to liven things up a bit (at the expense of some low down torque). 

 

My aim is to get my R to 100k miles!  Screw thoughts of depreciation...if you think that way I tell lads they have BOUGHT THE WRONG CAR!

Edited May 10, 2021 by Andyoz

[Lennym1984]

Just now, Andyoz said:

 

If you get in an R it will feel more 'fidgety' on the road and the buckets just add to that feel.  Now that doesn't always transfer to being faster on a B road...

 

Ain't that the truth! The roads where I live are so bad, I think you'd be faster in a tractor than just about any road car. My Cayman is running on R springs with a few adjustable bits and an aggressive geo (-2 camber all round, neutral toe) and whilst it copes admirably (far better than it should do), it's far easier to drive fast on the same roads in my Jaguar with it's beautifully damped suspension and less focussed geometry. On a smooth, twisty road however...

[wtaite01]

1 minute ago, Lennym1984 said:

 

Ain't that the truth! The roads where I live are so bad, I think you'd be faster in a tractor than just about any road car. My Cayman is running on R springs with a few adjustable bits and an aggressive geo (-2 camber all round, neutral toe) and whilst it copes admirably (far better than it should do), it's far easier to drive fast on the same roads in my Jaguar with it's beautifully damped suspension and less focussed geometry. On a smooth, twisty road however...

-2 camber at front is impressive, what are you running to achieve that? 

[Lennym1984]

Just now, wtaite01 said:

-2 camber at front is impressive, what are you running to achieve that? 

 

Powerflex adjustable bushes. They're not really adjustable in situ but if you just want them "maxxed out" they're fine (set them when you fit them and then fine tune the camber at the top mounts). I had the car setup by CG and it really is a wonder to drive.

[wtaite01]

2 minutes ago, Lennym1984 said:

 

Powerflex adjustable bushes. They're not really adjustable in situ but if you just want them "maxxed out" they're fine (set them when you fit them and then fine tune the camber at the top mounts). I had the car setup by CG and it really is a wonder to drive.

Interesting, thank you. Had always just been told that GT3 LCAs were the way to go, so it's good to hear that there are other options. 

[Lennym1984]

Just now, wtaite01 said:

Interesting, thank you. Had always just been told that GT3 LCAs were the way to go, so it's good to hear that there are other options. 

 

They offer more adjustability (I think you can get ~3 degree camber) but unless you are planning to go racing, -2 is probably sufficient. The way they work (extending the length of the arm from the inner pivot to the outer balljoint) is the same in principle but the Powerflex bushes are about 10% of the price.

 

 

[Beanoir™]

21 minutes ago, eponymoose said:

 

Depends on your definition of Porsche head. When it comes to Porsches, there's an awful lot of bullshit involved, especially when it comes to owners of a given model who want to validate their choices.

 

I've got a 987C because on balance it suits my preferences best. But I'm not going to pretend it's some kind of icon of driving perfection. Hell, a basic 986 Boxster has nicer steering and better general chassis and control feedback than any 987 (including the R).

 

The reality is that the hardware changes for the R are minimal and easily replicated if that's what you want to do. This upsets people, but really that is their problem.

 

As ever, you'll note I did not take this conversation in a personal direction. I made entirely legitimate and relevant observations in response to a direct question. Which isn't to say I'm necessarily right. But then we'll never know because all we've heard in response is 'you're not allowed an opinion' and 'you're not in our secret club so nothing you say counts'. People need to get a grip.

I've edited your other posts, and the ones which offended you.  

 

Back on topic and play nicely please Jeremy.  
 

 

[Andyoz]

36 minutes ago, Lennym1984 said:

 

Ain't that the truth! The roads where I live are so bad, I think you'd be faster in a tractor than just about any road car. My Cayman is running on R springs with a few adjustable bits and an aggressive geo (-2 camber all round, neutral toe) and whilst it copes admirably (far better than it should do), it's far easier to drive fast on the same roads in my Jaguar with it's beautifully damped suspension and less focussed geometry. On a smooth, twisty road however...

 

The other little surprise I had when going to buckets seats - it's harder for me to heel/toe easily.  I'm 51 and twisting my foot/angle without a bit of free hip action isn't as easy as it was even 10 years.  Just a little side affect to consider.  Feck they look so good though i will take one for the team there LOL

[Tom]

6 minutes ago, eponymoose said:

 

 

I wasn't the one who moved the dicsussion away from purely talking about cars. 

 

I'm not offended by anything. People can post what they want as far as I am concerned. I'm just pointing out that it wasn't me who shifted the tone to taking cheap shots and casting personal aspersions.  I responded in kind. If you have a problem with that, it would help if you could start with basics like getting your facts straight and telling the right people to play nicely. Little chance of that of course.

Unluckily for you, I can also ‘respond in kind’ 

 

Enjoy your holiday.  

[Lennym1984]

Just now, Andyoz said:

 

The other little surprise I had when going to buckets seats - it's harder for me to heel/toe easily.  I'm 51 and twisting my foot/angle without a bit of free hip action isn't as easy as it was even 10 years.  Just a little side affect to consider.  Feck they look so good though i will take one for the team there LOL

They do look very cool and I'd happily pay the premium just for the buckets alone (I'm not a huge fan of the external styling but I love the interior).

[Andyoz]

17 minutes ago, Lennym1984 said:

They do look very cool and I'd happily pay the premium just for the buckets alone (I'm not a huge fan of the external styling but I love the interior).

 

I'm pretty shallow and another thing the R has is the SportDesign steering wheel as standard.  Now that's something you are always interacting with and looking at - not many spec'd them on an S from factory - try and go buy one now ...££££

 

It's all these little things that add up to the total experience that goes beyond how a car handles etc....

[Lennym1984]

Just now, Andyoz said:

 

I'm pretty shallow and another thing the R has is the SportDesign steering wheel as standard.  Now that's something you are always interacting with and looking at

 

Fully agree. The things you interact with tend to have a more noticeable effect on enjoyment than the things which actually make a difference to performance. I've recently rebuilt my gear lever and transmission end mechanism and it really has been transformative. Despite having no impact on actual performance, it makes the whole car feel tighter and better to drive. The cost of all of this was less than £35.

 

Also agree re. the steering wheel. I have a 987.1 and thankfully have the sports steering wheel. The triangular one is pretty awful in my opinion.

[Andyoz]

The stock colour coded centre console and dash strip too

 

So ...buckets + steering wheel + colour coded bits (and red belts!) all add alot to the vibe when you open those lightweight doors.

 

I bought my R sight unseen - I'd never even seen one in the flesh - and was pleasantly surprised.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Andyoz

[Draven]

5 hours ago, PhilCS said:

 

You're arguing with a guy who's never owned an R....you do realise it's a waste of time right?

This is weird - I posted this hours ago but it seems to have not shown up. Oh well, let's try again...

Coming to this late, but saying that @eponymoose opinion isn't valid because he's not owned an R is misguided at best. Having spent half my life reviewing stuff for a living - mainly tech, but also cars - under no circumstances do you need to have owned something in order to asses it's value, quality and merit. And often, not having owned it, not having to push past that post purchase justification syndrome is what makes that assessment more valid in its objectivity. 

 

Much like myself eponymoose has been reviewing stuff for many years, in fact we know each other from both being journalists rather than car enthusiasts, so the insight he's giving is both objective and based on a significant platform of experience. Not to mention the fact that he tackled this exact question in a feature he wrote for 911 & Porsche World, where he compared my R to the modified S he was running at the time. His conclusions married up with my own, and despite being an R owner - probably the first R owner in the UK, having taken delivery of my car in March 2011 - I'm not blinded by the facts at play here. 

The R is a great car, made clear by the fact I bought mine new 10 years ago and still have no desire to move it on. It is, however, relatively simply replicated, or even bettered if you want to put the time and effort into an S. The only part that's probably not achievable easily - or affordably - are the aluminium doors, everything else you could retrofit. And while you're doing that, you'd probably opt for a better LSD, adjustable coil-overs, uprated exhaust, etc. 

 

As eponymoose states, the R is held high among its peers - other 987 models - but given it's low volume, it's not worth as much as you might have expected. Perhaps part of that comes down to Porsche finally letting the Cayman off its leash with the GT4, or perhaps it's just that few people fully understand how good the 987 is in all guises, including the R. 

 

Anyway, all that said, my advice would be that if you have an S and are looking for the best 987 possible, AND are planning to keep the car for the long term, it does make sense to think about what upgrades would make your S perfect for you specifically. But if you want something that gives you all the brilliant handling and performance offered by the S and just a little bit more, along with the feeling that you're driving something a little bit special in terms of exclusivity, then you're better off investing in an R, especially come resale time. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Draven

[Beanoir™]

12 minutes ago, Draven said:

This is weird - I posted this hours ago but it seems to have not shown up. Oh well, let's try again...

Coming to this late, but saying that @eponymoose opinion isn't valid because he's not owned an R is misguided at best. Having spent half my life reviewing stuff for a living - mainly tech, but also cars - under no circumstances do you need to have owned something in order to asses it's value, quality and merit. And often, not having owned it, not having to push past that post purchase justification syndrome is what makes that assessment more valid in its objectivity. 

 

Much like myself eponymoose has been reviewing stuff for many years, in fact we know each other from both being journalists rather than car enthusiasts, so the insight he's giving is both objective and based on a significant platform of experience. Not to mention the fact that he tackled this exact question in a feature he wrote for 911 & Porsche World, where he compared my R to the modified S he was running at the time. His conclusions married up with my own, and despite being an R owner - probably the first R owner in the UK, having taken delivery of my car in March 2011 - I'm not blinded by the facts at play here. 

The R is a great car, made clear by the fact I bought mine new 10 years ago and still have no desire to move it on. It is, however, relatively simply replicated, or even bettered if you want to put the time and effort into an S. The only part that's probably not achievable easily - or affordably - are the aluminium doors, everything else you could retrofit. And while you're doing that, you'd probably opt for a better LSD, adjustable coil-overs, uprated exhaust, etc. 

 

As eponymoose states, the R is held high among its peers - other 987 models - but given it's low volume, it's not worth as much as you might have expected. Perhaps part of that comes down to Porsche finally letting the Cayman off its leash with the GT4, or perhaps it's just that few people fully understand how good the 987 is in all guises, including the R. 

 

Anyway, all that said, my advice would be that if you have an S and are looking for the best 987 possible, AND are planning to keep the car for the long term, it does make sense to think about what upgrades would make your S perfect for you specifically. But if you want something that gives you all the brilliant handling and performance offered by the S and just a little bit more, along with the feeling that you're driving something a little bit special in terms of exclusivity, then you're better off investing in an R, especially come resale time. 

It was probably deleted by admin, because, much like myself and a number of others in the wider Porsche and car community, we’re all a bit fed up of Jeremy’s opinions and his uncanny ability to create havoc on whichever forum or platform he chooses to land on.  

 

 

[Andyoz]

@Draven ...never mind the R, noticed you also have a Focus RS M400R.  Great combo there as I'd love to match the R up with a hot hatch for a totally different dynamic sometimes!

 

I think the relevant point is most of us just don't have the time to mod stuff alot so the R sits well there.  All my R needed for me was new headers, a map and I've taken off the engine foam/carpet covers for the aural assault - and that's me done.  I also don't have access to alot of Porsche expertise here in NI so my original idea of modding an S would have gone down a few dead ends, cost me driving time and ultimately might have had me wondering what next all the time.

[Draven]

I agree with you completely @Andyoz - the R has been a pretty much perfect car for me. Mine has stayed relatively stock bar the GT3 master cylinder, upgraded brake pads, Cup 2 tyres and a couple of cosmetic bits and pieces. I may upgrade bits and pieces as they need replacing rather than replacing with stock items, but after 10 years I'm still not tempted to swap it for anything else. 

 

As for the Focus RS, it's the perfect daily driver. In fact my daily driver is always a hot hatch, and for the most part always a Focus RS. I've had every Focus RS from new, but I might be holding onto this one for a good while since Ford is pretty adamant that there won't be a Mk4 version - still hoping that changes though. 

 

The Mk3 RS is superb, but definitely benefits from some modifications. Mine is running Mountune M400R map, along with full exhaust and sports cat, uprated intercooler and induction kit, Quaife dif, short shifter, sports springs, uprated brake pads and braided lines, uprated engine mount, and probably a load of other bits and ieces I've forgotten about. 

 

What you end up with is around 400bhp / 420lb ft fed through a proper torque vectoring AWD system - none of that simple Haldex stuff here 😂 The result being incredible grip and traction and surprising agility, all delivered with addictive dollops of torque. Honestly, in the real world on on the public roads the RS is probably faster point to point than the R, but it's a completely different experience. 

 

For me the two complement each other perfectly. One's a high revving, low slung, light and agile mid engine sports car that's built from the ground up to be exactly that. The other is a frankly insanely quick but incredibly practical car, that's still imense fun to drive, thanks in no small part to it still having three pedals.

[Andyoz]

^^^ Yeah once my kids nick off I do fancy running a hot hatch daily!

[Aaron]

22 minutes ago, Draven said:

I agree with you completely @Andyoz - the R has been a pretty much perfect car for me. Mine has stayed relatively stock bar the GT3 master cylinder, upgraded brake pads, Cup 2 tyres and a couple of cosmetic bits and pieces. I may upgrade bits and pieces as they need replacing rather than replacing with stock items, but after 10 years I'm still not tempted to swap it for anything else. 

 

As for the Focus RS, it's the perfect daily driver. In fact my daily driver is always a hot hatch, and for the most part always a Focus RS. I've had every Focus RS from new, but I might be holding onto this one for a good while since Ford is pretty adamant that there won't be a Mk4 version - still hoping that changes though. 

 

The Mk3 RS is superb, but definitely benefits from some modifications. Mine is running Mountune M400R map, along with full exhaust and sports cat, uprated intercooler and induction kit, Quaife dif, short shifter, sports springs, uprated brake pads and braided lines, uprated engine mount, and probably a load of other bits and ieces I've forgotten about. 

 

What you end up with is around 400bhp / 420lb ft fed through a proper torque vectoring AWD system - none of that simple Haldex stuff here 😂 The result being incredible grip and traction and surprising agility, all delivered with addictive dollops of torque. Honestly, in the real world on on the public roads the RS is probably faster point to point than the R, but it's a completely different experience. 

 

For me the two complement each other perfectly. One's a high revving, low slung, light and agile mid engine sports car that's built from the ground up to be exactly that. The other is a frankly insanely quick but incredibly practical car, that's still imense fun to drive, thanks in no small part to it still having three pedals.

 

Wise words and appreciable insight!  A hot hatch and an R are undoubtedly a great combo - FK8 CTR and R here.  I had an S2000 and the R, and it was extremely conflicting at times.  There is never any confliction with the FK8; it's the practical (albeit fast and fun) daily and that's all it should be.

 

I assumed this thread may have devolved since last night but it has proven stimulating with multiple perspectives.